Dresses and Cleavage in a Bear Bar

Dr. Bill. I hang out at a bar that might be called a bear bar. Now and then a woman comes in from a bar up the street that is known as a drag queen hang-out. I say woman because I believe she is transgendered. She is probably a nice enough person, but she is, unfortunately, rather shrill, borderline obnoxious, and doesn't really fit in with the atmosphere of this bar. Worse, she walks around with money sticking out of her substantial cleavage and encourages the customers to stick money in her boobs. Many of the guys are good sports, but I find this behavior kind of sleazy, as she is not an entertainer for this bar. I'm afraid if I say anything I'll be called a bigot, but I'm also afraid if she isn't discouraged -- especially from soliciting cash -- she'll bring several of her friends to do the same thing. I have nothing against drag queens/transsexuals, but if I wanted to hang out with them I'd go to the bar where they work and hang out. What do I do? I like this bar with its masculine gay atmosphere but if it becomes a drag queen hang-out it will be ruined for me and for most of the customers.

My advice is to wait awhile and see what happens. This gal may just come in for an occasional drink, but if she continues soliciting for cash you have a right to say something to the bouncer or manager. Most gay bars (unless they're outright hustler bars) won't put up with men soliciting cash let alone women or drag queens.

Not everyone finds the drag/ transgender scene entertaining or even relevant in these "bear" days, and I can well understand that an "invasion" of drag queens/trans women would certainly change the atmosphere and dynamics of the bar. There are places that are more appropriate for drag queens. It doesn't make you a bigot if you simply prefer to hang out with guys dressed as guys. After all you are attracted to men. But don't over-react to something that may never become a problem.

Frankly -- and I'm being very politically incorrect here -- I find the drag scene a little passe, although you are right that nowadays many of these "guys" have actually transitioned into gals, although they may retain their penises. Somehow transvestism and transsexuality have become so cemented in the public's mind with homosexuality that far too many people think if you're a gay man you want to wear dresses, which is far, far from the truth. I don't believe we should be transphobic -- transsexuals don't have an easy time of it -- but if a scene is not of interest to you, it just isn't. When it comes to drag shows, for instance -- guys (or gals) in dresses lip-syncing to records -- well, I would sooner have root canal surgery without anesthetic than sit through any more of them.

Like anybody else, most drag queens are nice people and can be a lot of fun, but we certainly know that some of them can be -- well, as you put it -- "shrill and borderline obnoxious," which is true of a lot of people, of course. Because they're ignored by most of the customers, some straight women become very drunk and shrill and difficult in gay bars, and we've all seen our share of "queens" who get all loud and squealing and silly when they've had too much. The transgender community is diverse, of course, and the "shrill," overbearing, over-dressed female has become a stereotype. Not every drag queen/trans woman is like Ru Paul (not that I have anything against Ru Paul). Drag/transgender entertainers -- like any entertainer -- need attention, and if they don't get it ...

Hang tight. Chances are this gal will ultimately want to hang out where she gets more appreciation -- and money.

Getting Affectionate

Good Evening, I came across your blog when looking up Gay Dating Etiquette.  I have been single for about 11 yrs.  I joined OurTime.com and met someone about a 1 1/2 months ago.  We have been on 4 dinner dates and have a great time.  Each time we greet and end with a handshake. We always agree to do it again.  I know we have great chemistry.  But how/when would be the time to show more affection?

Last Night was our 4th date and the discussion turned to both of us sharing the darker side we experienced.  I found him even more attractive.  I texted him and told him is was a fun dinner and followed up with asking for a date this upcoming Tues or Wed.  He texted back and agreed to Wed.

I am confused.  I am liking him more and more each time I see him. He has told me he thinks I am attractive, and that he met someone that casually knows me.  His friend asked what he has been up to.  He said he met a great guy and has been enjoying that.  I guess I have his attention.

Please help.  I just don't want to get any older and still be alone.  I really enjoy this guy.

Thank you for any advise you can offer.

Four dates and not even a good-night kiss yet? What are you waiting for?

Seriously, it sounds as if each of you is waiting for the other to make a move. You've gotten to know each other, enjoy each other's company, and find each other attractive. If he won't make the first move, then you'll have to do it. 

It is easy enough to be affectionate. You can give him a gentle, loving pat on the cheek. Squeeze his shoulder or thigh. Put you arm around him. Some people aren't comfortable with Public Displays of Affection, and some gay men are still in the closet, so I would suggest taking him to a gay bar where he might feel more at ease. Try to sit side by side either in the bar or restaurant, wrap your arm around him, and give him a kiss on the cheek. Hopefully he'll turn in your direction and you'll be kissing on the mouth. I think you'll know when the time is right. Hell, even if it isn't, give it a try! What can you lose?

If he has some problems or issues it's better to know it sooner then later.

This may lead into a question of "my place or yours." I would suggest telling him that you're not just interested in him as a sex object, but have romantic feelings as well. That way he'll know what your intentions are and you can better gauge his reaction.

 I'm not saying that sex should be hurried, but if you're hoping for a possible long-term relationship with this guy, sooner or later you'll have to know if the two of you are compatible. Stick to safe sex, use a condom, and enjoy yourself. 

Have fun and good luck!

Casual versus Anonymous

I came across a post where you answered a question about casual sex. Isn't it true that casual sex and anonymous sex are not the same thing? 

Absolutely true. Casual sex is a one night stand, a bar pick-up, or it can refer to sleeping with a person you are acquainted with, maybe even friends with [a fuck buddy, or as straight people say "friends with benefits"], but aren't in love with. There's no romance, no angst, no jealousy, none of the tortured, joyous emotions of a full-fledged love affair. Just good, clean sex.

Anonymous sex, on the other hand, is where you not only never get to know the person with whom you are having sex, you may not even get to see what they look like, and there's definitely little, if any, conversation. This is --in my opinion -- old-fashioned sex, more prevalent in the days before Stonewall, where gay men would meet anonymously in dark parks, men's rooms ["tea rooms"], movie theaters, and other trysting places where there was not only no wining and dining or cruising before sex, there was no anything -- the two would just get right at it for instant gratification.

Before AIDS, there were many darkened back room bars where anonymous sex would go on. Men would follow a guy they saw and liked in the [brighter] front room of the bar and hope that if they hooked up with him in the back room they were getting the right guy! But with all those bodies, and shadows, who knows?

Frankly, in my opinion, sex is a much more satisfying experience in a bed and after getting to know someone even a little bit. Still there are people -- gay and straight -- who like the no-frills action and slight edge of danger to anonymous, often public sexual encounters.

Bras and Bullets

I want to share a wild true story with you that happened to me some years ago. I was in a gay bar when the bartender, who was straight -- a very hairy, macho fellow with an enormous pot belly -- tore open his shirt to reveal that he was wearing a bra. When one of the customers started laughing at him, the bartender pulled out a gun and started shooting. Luckily, no one was hurt. Ever hear anything so weird?

Uh, I hope we don't go to the same bars. And no, I've never heard anything that weird (weirder, yes) and I have a feeling that neither did you.

Getting Lucky -- Or Not

On your recent post on "The Revenge of 'Fats and Femmes'" you talk about how guys sometimes come on to and go home with other guys who are much less attractive and you give various reasons for it. But isn't the number one reason that guys are just drunk and horny and don't realize what they've got in bed with them until they wake up the next morning? Anon.

LOL, Well, there is that old saying that if you get drunk you may wind up having sex with someone you wouldn't even want to talk to in the daylight.

And that other old saying: a stiff dick has no conscience.

Sure, of course it's true that some sex hook ups (gay or straight) happen because one or both parties are way too inebriated. And it's also true that a horny guy near closing time will often consent to go home with a guy who really isn't his type just so he can get a damn good blow job. (Hopefully. Sometimes they just pass out and you're left holding the ... ).

However, what I was talking about in the other post is reasonably sober guys who for one reason or another are attracted to men that you wouldn't think they would be.

While we're on this subject may I take the opportunity to importune people who do wind up in bed with someone they normally wouldn't go for to at least be kind in the morning. There's no point in hurting somebody's feelings just because you got too drunk.

Besides, sooner or later we all get lucky and wind up with somebody who's way out of our league.

Revenge of the "Fat and Femme"

Dr. Bill, what's going on here? I consider myself a reasonably attractive, in good shape, gay man in his early forties, and I do okay in the bar scene and on line. But I notice more and more that -- to be charitable -- chubby guys seem to be getting a lot of attention in gay bars. I'm not necessarily talking about bears or chubby-bears, but just obese -- sometimes morbidly obese -- guys, often effeminate, who seem to be attracting men who are much more attractive than they are. What's going on here? The other night I saw a good-looking guy rejected by a man who made an instant beeline for a super-plump homely fellow with zits and was making out with him. I mean, didn't it used to be that most gay men would put on their profiles "no fats, no femmes." What happened to make these -- to me -- gross guys so "sexy" all of a sudden?" Annoyed in New York City.

First of all, there's no accounting for taste. There are guys who won't look twice at a guy with a shaved head and goatee, while others are drawn to them like moths to a flame (thank goodness for me). I imagine the same is true for chubby guys. But I have noticed some changes over the years, maybe relating to the emergence of bear culture, where it isn't about being young, slender, having a full head of hair, or being conventionally handsome. Still, some people think it's getting a little out of hand.

Why would a handsome guy -- as you and I and others have observed -- want to make out and go off with a man who, by most objective standards, is just the opposite of him? I can think of at least two reasons.

Even good-looking guys can suffer from low self-esteem. Some men are intimidated by other "hot" guys and would just as soon be serviced by someone who is much less attractive. They may have issues that we know nothing about -- sexual problems, or are HIV positive -- and figure a less attractive man will be so grateful to have them that they'll overlook things that the hotter guys -- who can pick and choose -- may not. Often when a good-looking person chooses an "ugly" or "slovenly" person for a sex partner, it's an expression of the former's self-hatred.

Then we have to remember that Love is Blind. Some people change over the years, lose their looks, and become much less attractive than their partners. But the other partner is still in love, and when he kisses the other guy, he's kissing the man he remembers, the man he was so attracted to long ago. I think that must be a case with a couple who come into my usual hang-out all the time and just stand there and make out while others around them are shaking their heads and wondering what one guy sees in the other.

And, again, there really is no accounting for taste. Some people see something in somebody that you or I may not see.

There have always been chubby chasers, people who found something erotic about excessive avoirdupois. [As well as guys who were attracted to effeminate men, perhaps because they feel superior to them.] A few years back,when I was much heavier than I am today, I was often approached by men who seemed to like me because of the extra weight. Frankly it grossed me out a bit, so I promptly went on a diet.

Many years ago when I was skinny, I went with a fat friend to a party given by Girth and Mirth, a group for chubbies and their chasers. I remember being practically chased around the room by obese guys, but no one was chasing them, and I felt that was kind of unfair. I mean this was supposed to be a group for men who found portly fellows sexy, so what was going on?

But now the situation seems to have changed a bit. One acquaintance recently said to me "The only guys who get laid these days are fat guys."

Well, that's a "gross" exaggeration of course.

But in a sense it's nice to know that there is literally somebody for everyone, that virtually everyone is somebody's type.

As long as you are somebody's type, don't worry about the ones who turn up their noses at you and walk out the door with somebody that -- to you -- looks like they escaped from a circus sideshow. [No offense intended to anyone. I mean, I know I'm not exactly "Brad Pitt." Who isn't all that great anyway.]

I mean, better them than you, right?

Belly Up to the Bar, Boys!

Is someone who stays out until four in the morning drinking an alcoholic? Anon.

I assume you're either talking about yourself or a gay friend of yours, as all sorts of people enjoy drinking until the wee hours. And no, it doesn't automatically mean that someone is an alcoholic just because they close the bar on occasion, especially on weekends and special occasions. Even being a heavy drinker doesn't necessarily mean that someone is addicted to alcohol, which is basically what being an alcoholic means. The question is: how often does a person party? If a person is getting legally drunk every or most nights in the week, it is not a healthy situation. In excess, alcohol is essentially a poison.

Let's face it -- some people like to party, and in the bar scene, alcohol is part of the equation. Staying out late [unless you're constantly late for work and get fired] isn't a problem. The problem is exactly how much alcohol a person is consuming, and how it affects their behavior. In my opinion, a person doesn't have to be an alcoholic to have a "drinking problem" if he: a.) gets arrested on a fairly regular basis whenever he gets drunk; b.) turns hostile and is always getting thrown out of bars when he's drunk; c.) just can't handle his liquor and never knows when to stop; d.) drinks and drives; e.) mixes alcohol with illegal and or prescription drugs for a very bad combination and reaction, and f.) indulges in seriously unsafe sex due to alcohol consumption. [It also has to be said that many alcoholics are not obviously so. That is, they don't go out to bars and come home shit-faced. They can be closet, secretive drinkers. And there are different stages to alcoholism.]

Then there's the question of black outs. If a person never remembers how they got home or who they talked to [or had sex with!!!], they are clearly drinking too much.

I suggest that anyone who thinks they may be over-indulging try this test. Go out one night and make up your mind not to get so wasted that you won't remember the entire evening [not that you have to remember every single detail or half-witticism]. You may get a buzz, feel a little light-headed and happy, but basically -- stay in control. If it's absolutely impossible for you to do this, even if you try it more than once, there may be some reason for concern.

Some people drink too much not because they're alcoholic but because they are going through a particularly difficult period, and they use alcohol to wipe away the stress and temporarily forget what ails them. Of course, this can sometimes lead to additional problems.

But bar-hopping, drinking [moderately], and staying out late isn't of itself a problem unless the other factors I mentioned above are present.

Also remember that some people are unapologetic drinkers, and as long as they're not consuming volumes of alcohol every day, it isn't necessarily a problem. When it was recently said that having more than three drinks at a time was considered a binge, it engendered laughter in many quarters. As one fellow put it: "Three drinks? Hell, I'm just getting started!"

Straight Bartender in Gay Bar

My boyfriend is straight and not homophobic and chooses to work in a gay bar as a bartender. What I can't understand is why can't some of the gay men there accept that my boyfriend is straight and not keep asking him if he's gay and hitting on him all the time, I mean, aren't gays supposed to be tolerant because they're discriminated against themselves, right? Some of the customers get angry when he says he's straight, and I know he doesn't like it when they think he's gay or even tell him he is and then even start to flirt with him. JP.

He doesn't like it or you don't? It sounds like you've got a few issues that your boyfriend may or may not share. Are you afraid if they customers flirt with your boyfriend he might flirt back?

Gay men are divided when it comes to straight bartenders in our bars. Some think -- who cares? He's just the person who serves me my drinks. Others feel mighty uncomfortable with straight-identified bartenders. They fear that even a gay-friendly straight guy always feels superior to a gay man. Then there's the fact that we live in a world where many MSM (Men who have Sex with Men) don't identify as gay or even bisexual because they're ashamed and are more or less leading a straight, closeted life. They have girlfriends or wives and children. Now it may seem unlikely that someone like this would work in a gay bar, but it is definitely not unheard of. I'm not saying that your boyfriend is one of these gay-friendly closet cases, as I call them, but you have to understand why gay men are often cynical about guys who immerse themselves in gay culture (and working in a gay bar is immersing yourself in gay culture) yet who claim to be totally straight. You and your boyfriend have to realize that it goes with the territory that most customers assume the bartenders in a gay bar are gay. If it bothers him all that much he probably shouldn't be working in a gay bar.

Why does he get angry if people think he's gay? Deep down does he think there's something wrong in being gay? Straight men who are truly secure and comfortable in their sexuality shouldn't get their noses out of joint if someone mistakenly believes they're gay. Especially when they're working in a gay bar! Some straight men who are assumed to be gay develop a sense of humor about it and others feel complimented by it but if your boyfriend gets angry it's sending a very negative message to the gay guys who are, after all, giving him tips and helping him make a living.

I get that you don't like your boyfriend working in this place. He may be a really cool, super-accepting straight guy (although the way you describe him makes me wonder) but he may also be a gay/bi man working through his issues in a homoerotic environment in which he may eventually come to terms with his sexual identity. It's happened before. I've met a few straight-identified guys working in gay bars and some of them did ultimately turn out to be gay or bisexual. Not having met your boyfriend I can't say with any certainty what the story is with him. In any case, if he's really straight, he's not going to "turn gay" just because some gay men flirt with him or make an occasional pass. You both need to get over it or he needs to find a new job.

One last thing. Where is it written that because gay men are discriminated against that means we have to be more tolerant? Certainly gay people shouldn't be racist or sexist or anti-Semitic and so on. But aren't we allowed to be human and have our own little prejudices? Mind you, I'm not saying that if a gay man prefers gay bartenders over straight ones that that makes him "heterophobic." I personally know a number of fine, friendly, entertaining straight men (although they don't work in gay bars) but let's face it: In gay bars, gay men are always a lot more fun than straight guys!

Big Sexy Fat Guys

While I'm glad that bear culture has shown that a man doesn't have to be a young, perfect "pretty boy" to be attractive, there seems to be a downside, and that's all the -- what else can I call them but "big fat guys" who strut around as if they think they're God's gift to gay men. What's up with that? I'm not saying these guys don't have their admirers, but if I think it's obnoxious for handsome young hunks with great bodies to act all haughty and full of attitude, you can imagine how I feel about middle-aged guys built like friggin' refrigerators with bellies out to here and faces only a mother could love acting like they're the hottest things on the planet. And I seem to see more and more of these obnoxious fellows. What do you think? Bob.

Okay. I'm gonna tread carefully here. Yes, I have noticed just what you're talking about, and yes it's funny that it's happening in the bear scene because the whole point of the bear scene is "no attitude."

Bear culture has empowered some men who would in general not be considered conventionally attractive (or who are unattractive even by bear standards perhaps) to feel sexy, and yes they have their admirers. Let's make it clear that not every classic bear is "big fat and obnoxious" -- many are solid, beefy, handsome (both in the traditional and non-traditional sense) men who are not rude slobs but friendly and attractive fellows.

The guys you're talking about and who I've observed are not chubby bears, either, who tend to be cuddly, warm, and attitude free. In some ways they're a separate species. Maybe what we and others have observed is a chip-on-the-shoulder attitude because outside the bear bar some of these guys don't get a second look -- the attitude may come from years of people being unkind and haughty to them. So they're defensive. And if you've felt ugly all your life and suddenly you discover a culture where your "flaws" -- such as a big belly and a lack of comeliness -- can be virtues, then it's understandable why some of these guys walk around as if they think they're super-hot and madly f--kable. Because some people see them that way. Not you or me, perhaps. But some people. And I'm all for every one finding the right flavor of ice cream. There is truly no accounting for taste.

So I try to be understanding and sympathetic of these fellows (after all I ain't exactly Brad Pitt myself, although Pitt isn't my type anyway), although I have to confess that when some of these guys brush past me with their 300 pound bulk and don't give a shit if they knock my drink out of my hand or step on my foot or act like I'm not even in the room, I'd like to give a Big Fat Guy a big fat kick in the ass!

In other words, sometimes a jerk is just a jerk.

Bars vs. Online Dating

You've written about being careful about who you meet online. But don't you have to be even more careful in bars, especially if you're drinking? At least online you have a clear head. Anon.

Well, maybe you do. A picture of a hot guy or a massive member attached to a private message on a gay dating site can make some men take any risk. There are some things you can do to protect yourself from bad scenes if you meet someone in a bar:

1.) Don't get so crap-faced that you don't know what you're doing or who you're doing it with.

2.) Carry plenty of condoms. Most bars have jars full of them, or ask the bartender.

3.) If someone seems too good to be true -- they're definitely way out of your league -- maybe they have less than pleasant motives for wanting to get together.

4.) Ask the other customers, preferably regulars, as well as the bartender, if they know the guy you're planning to go off with. Is he a complete stranger to everyone? Is he well-known as a nice guy in the bar?

5.) If you go off with a stranger, make sure you introduce him to a few people, and that he knows that they know who you're going off with.

6.) If someone is sending out bad signals, listen to your brain and don't go with him.

7.) Don't bring a complete stranger that no one can vouch for to your home. Bringing them to your hotel room is also a bad idea. If you want to go home with someone, stay out of private houses in isolated areas until you know them better. Going to somebody else's hotel room is generally safer.

8.) Sick to safe sex! Many guys do not know their HIV status, lie about it, or do not volunteer the information. But if you stick to safe sex, that won't be a problem.

The advantage that bars have over online dating is that at least you're meeting the guy face to face and you can immediately tell if the chemistry is there (unless it's more a question of alcohol-induced lust). If you're not drunk you can size the person up. You're seeing what they really look like and not a possibly doctored or older photograph.

Remember, play safe and have a great time.

Private Message

Okay. I got a private message on a gay dating site from a guy who wants to f--k around. Although my photos are up-to-date and accurately represent me, he doesn't seem to realize that he and I have not only met at a local gay bar -- he's generally a little tight -- but have had numerous conversations over the past couple of years. I find this really awkward. I'm not interested in him that way but I'm afraid if I ignore him or send a flippant answer he'll either be hurt or nasty, and this may create tension in the bar. I can't believe he doesn't realize we know each other but in his message he makes no reference to it at all. GH.

Maybe he just wants to get to the nitty gritty, if you know what I mean. (And remember that some people look a little different in photos, even recent ones, than they do in real life.) If he's always a little drunk when he runs into you, he may not only not remember the conversations you've had, he may not even remember you. If you're concerned what he'll say the next time you run into him, he may not even make the connection between the real you and the guy on the web site, even if you obviously look the same. I would handle this the way you would handle any private message from a guy who wants to fool around with you when you're just not interested. Either ignore it (which some feel is rude), tell him he's not your type (which some think is even ruder) or send a friendly, non-committal response: "how ya doin, or how are things goin', or nice to hear from you," and leave it at that. Since the guy doesn't even seem to realize or remember that the two of you have already met, personally I would just ignore the message. Your call.

Straight Son in Gay Bar

My son, who is straight, recently started working in a gay bar, and he is very annoyed at the way everyone there just assumes he's gay. He hasn't been there long, and he's thinking of quitting. Why can't a man work in a gay bar without everyone thinking he's gay? Concerned Mama.

Actually these days many gay bars seem to have straight -- or at least straight-identified -- employees, so obviously the managers of these establishments don't always have an aversion to hiring straight people. I do have to say if a straight man finds it uncomfortable working in a gay environment -- as your son seems to -- then, frankly, he shouldn't work in a gay bar. It troubles me that you seem to think it's the fault of the customers -- you don't state this outright but it's tacit in what you say -- but the fact remains that most of the bartenders in gay bars are gay, so most people who go into the bar will assume your son is homosexual as well. If you're honest, isn't your son more likely to be concerned that his straight friends outside the bar will think he's gay once they find out where he's working? If this is a problem for him, he should move on. And if you're totally honest with yourself, isn't your chief concern not that your son may be uncomfortable but that the customers may be right? (There is nothing wrong with being gay!)

First of all, I don't know if your son is really straight (and neither do you, to be blunt) because many of the straight-identified bartenders in gay bars are working through their sexual identity issues, enjoying an open and free gay environment until they can finally get past their personal hang ups and "stand up and be counted" as gay along with everyone else. Many gay people can't understand why a straight guy, no matter how gay-friendly he may think he is, wouldn't prefer to work in a straight bar where he wouldn't have to worry about what people think of his sexuality and could meet plenty of "babes" of the opposite sex.

Your son could be genuinely hetero, I suppose, but if he really hates that everyone thinks he's gay -- a homophobic reaction in my opinion, considering it's an environment where people are not "punished" for being gay -- then he has no business working in a gay bar. It takes a very secure, very open-minded, very liberal, very special kind of straight guy to work in a gay bar, and I really don't know if there are many of them around, even today.