Women and Gay Men

One thing has become clear to me since I started this blog.

Whether they think of themselves as gay, bi or straight, there are still a lot of guys in the closet and who are in denial of their true sexuality.

And there are a great number of women who either have gay boyfriends or even husbands, or are afraid that they do. [I rarely hear from men who are afraid their wives or girlfriends are lesbians.]

It would be all too easy to dismiss these letters out of hand, but I recognize that these women are confused -- it's their lives and futures they're worried about. No one wants to invest a lot of time in a relationship only to discover that it's a sham. Some women are deeply conflicted because on one hand they are in love and want to have happy, healthy marriages, but on the other, they don't want a possibly gay partner to be repressed and miserable and in the closet.

Below are a sample of some of the letters. Some of the situations are very similar, and others have their own unique aspects.

Boyfriend Marries Woman Part 2

The following is in response to my past last month on Boyfriend Marries Woman.

Thanks Dr. Bill for your answer -

A few more clarifications from my end - - well my partner did mention raising kids at some point in the past but I did not show much enthusiasm and we let the matter drop- had I known it meant so much to him I would have gladly gone in for surrogacy of a child as I wanted to be with him at any cost.

Unfortunately the arranged marriage bit is very real. I chose not to believe it hoping that he was just testing me but a few days before he left he came home with gifts from his office mates and then it hit me like a ton of bricks. Sometimes we just don't want to believe the ominous signs...

My intense regret is that we both did so much to make a life together and to just throw it away after a silly argument is rash and immature. I cut-off ties with friends and family to just be solely with him and now most of my friends are either smug or don't want to have anything to do with me.

Yes you are right I don't intend in having a 3rd person in our relationship and I hope I am strong enough to tell him that when he comes back. Doc I am trying very hard not to be bitter or hate. Yes I know I must play the field again and I will but for now I am hoping he comes back and gives me hope for both of us to be together still. After all as you say gay men should remain with other gay men.

Here's a question for you: since he is a top gay man does that make him more prone to bi-sexuality than say a bottom ?

Thanks and regards.

Well this guy doesn't sound like a genuine bisexual to me, just someone who is giving in to parental pressure and marrying the woman that his parents have apparently picked out for him. It's a shame he doesn't have the strength to resist this. But to answer your question, there's no evidence to suggest that bisexual men are more likely to be tops or vice versa, just as there is no correlation between how butch of femme a guy may be and whether or not he's a top or bottom. Some homosexual men with "issues" refuse to be bottoms [even if that's what they really want] because they think it "unmanly" -- which is often why they wind up with women. There are also guys who have "straight" sex with women -- generally their wives [or beards] -- and then put up the legs for the men in their lives.

If your friends are not being supportive, then to hell with them. You'll make new friends -- and find a great new guy who will treat you with the respect you deserve.

Woman with Gay Husband

Hi,
I am a woman married to a man who identifies as gay. He was out and proud when we met 12 years ago, and was confused to find himself very attracted to me when he is not normally attracted to women. He eventually pursued a sexual relationship with me, basically couldn’t keep his hands off me, even more than any straight guy I’d been with, and after three years we got married. So we’ve now been married 8 and a half years and things have been cooling off a little. I am really not sure what to do. We love each other and want to stay together. I don’t know if this is normal for a 12 year relationship or if it because he is gay. I asked him if he thought his being gay was causing a problem in our relationship and he said “yeah, cuz you get upset if I check out guys in front of you.” I explained that his being gay is not the problem. Obviously men are going to look at people. I had been upset when he was openly disrespecting me and drooling over someone with his gay friends right in front of me. Any woman would be upset by that behavior, whether the guy is checking out men or women or whatever. I do not care at all if he is attracted to men as long as he is attracted to me, and as long as he is polite in public about it. Anyway, I have had lots of conflicting advice from different counselors about our situation. Some think he is just a normal guy and if I treat him as I would treat any straight guy, things will improve. Some say he is gay and will never be fulfilled by me. We think both those views are extremist and inappropriate for us. Any thoughts/advice?
Thanks,

I do have some thoughts on this matter but I don't know if it's what you want to hear. First let me say that you have to understand I am a long-time gay activist whose message has always been that it's okay to be gay, and that the whole point of Gay Rights and an acceptance of homosexuality is that gay men should be with men [to be true to their natures] and lesbians should be with other women. Therefore, I have never been a proponent of "mixed marriages" between a gay man and a straight person [or a member of the opposite sex, regardless of their sexual orientation.] You might say, well isn't gay rights about people being free to be with whomever they choose? No, for me it was about men being free to be with men and women with women. Mixed marriages generally come about due to the unhealthy needs of the two parties involved. The gay partner somehow needs to be seen as straight by society at large [which is where the wife comes in] and the straight partner simply wants to ignore the realities of the situation -- their partner's true sexual orientation -- out of their own, sometimes self-centered desires.

It seems a little odd to me that you say your husband is/was an "out and proud" gay man at one point, when many today would assume he was bisexual. If this is not the case [and without getting into the fact that "bisexuality" can on occasion be a completely false identification, political correctness be damned] then the relationship doesn't seem to make much sense. Why on Earth would you want a gay husband, and then have to play "policewoman" when he's out in public? If he's gay he's going to be attracted almost exclusively to guys -- this is something he simply can't change. It seems you've set up a tremendous burden for yourself by marrying someone who plays for the other team.

I also have to question his motives. You say he was "Out and Proud" but you may not fully understand what that means. There are, sadly, men who are openly gay but who are still full of guilt and shame and for some reason desire a heterosexual relationship. Women who marry guys like this sometimes suffer from self-esteem issues; they feel they can't do any better. So instead of being good friends to these guys and encouraging them to accept themselves, they marry them!

I'm going to be very, very blunt now and wonder just which of you is paying the bills? I don't like the way your husband tries to sort of sidestep the basic issue of his being gay by making it not about his sexual orientation but about your objecting to his flirting with men in your presence; it's a bit disingenuous of him. But I also have to say that your attitude of "I do not care at all if he is attracted to men as long as he is attracted to me, and as long as he is polite in public about it" is completely unrealistic. Even borderline homophobic. Why not just let this guy be gay and find a perfectly nice straight guy -- they do exist!

I have to agree with those who say that a homosexual man can not be completely fulfilled by a relationship with a woman. I have met and known many homosexual men with wives and sometimes families, and while these men may love their wives as best friends and companions, they can feel no true romantic passion for them. Often they fantasize about men while they are engaging in sex with their spouses. If this guy openly flirts with guys in front of you, you have to assume he's hooking up with them as well. One-night stands can lead to affairs can lead to long-time relationships. [I also have to say that I'm bothered by your use of the terms "normal guy" versus "gay," as if I have said anything over the years it is that being gay is not abnormal. Women who think they're somehow "saving" their men from homosexuality are way off the beam.]

I have made it clear in other posts that I have always been sympathetic to women who inadvertently marry men who are homosexual. I have also maintained that women who marry gay guys -- men they already know are attracted to men -- in the hopes they'll change, stay on the straight and narrow, or somehow magically transform into heterosexuals are asking for what they get. Which, invariably, is disappointment.

My advice is to turn your husband into a friend, and look for a genuinely heterosexual man to have a completely fulfilling relationship with.

It's not the twelve years -- it's that your husband is gay.

"Man-Hating" Lesbians?

Dear Bill, I stumbled upon your website a few months back and since then I am a regular reader of your blog. Without wasting much time let me get it to the point right away. What I have seen for the last couple of years that is gay men and straight women enjoy a very "close" relationship with each other but for lesbians and [gay] men quite the opposite is true - lesbian women ( with the exception of a few) hate almost everything that is male. Let me make it clear to you, though, that I am no fan of "sweeping generalizations" but I have to tell you what I have seen in these years.

Lesbian women, who would have a cow over an "insensitive" remark directed towards their sexual orientation, (it never ceases to amaze me and sometime angers me) don't give a second thought before stirring up hatred towards men in pretty much every aspect of their life. Why so? I am waiting for your answer.


You say you don't like sweeping generalizations so all I can think is that you've had some mighty unfortunate incidents with certain gay women in the past couple of years, which is too bad. I have always enjoyed good and friendly relationships with the lesbians I have known. In general I have to say that my observations over the years have been quite different from yours. Most gay men and lesbians I know get along together perfectly well. Of course, there can always be misunderstandings and personality clashes. This may be what you have encountered -- not "hatred of all men" per se.

First, you have to remember that gay men and lesbians share one major thing in common. We're all gay! Therefore putting each other down almost seems homophobic!

I can't speak for the lesbians you've encountered but you have to understand that not only do they have to deal with homophobia, but with sexism, and for some -- even in this day and age -- it happens to them on a regular basis. Because of the insensitive way they've been treated by men -- gay and straight -- some women (again gay and straight) have become especially sensitive to what they perceive as a slight, an indication that there's something second-rate about them because they're female. It's understandable that they would be ticked off by this.

You also have to understand that some lesbians might be reacting to those gay men who-- sadly -- have a "problem" with lesbians. As I say, since we're all gay this doesn't make much sense to me. But while they are definitely in the minority I have met gay men who don't like lesbians and make no bones about it. Certainly a gay woman who encounters one of these men has no reason to go out of her way to be pleasant. Some of these men simply dislike women; others simply don't relate to lesbians but have a number of straight women friends who share their interests -- such as men. Some lesbians may not hate men -- they're just not interested in them [and vice versa].

But right here let me make it clear that that whole business of gay men hating women is an awful old stereotype. Most gay men have warm relationships with female friends and relatives, gay or straight. This also applies to the stereotype of "man-hating" lesbians.

Now back in the seventies when the women's liberation movement was first coming into prominence, there were a lot of very angry women who were sick and tired of the second-class status imposed on them by [some] men, and I've no doubt that some of them -- regardless of sexual orientation -- did for a time "hate" men -- or at least "male chauvinist pigs" and the attitudes they engendered. But as I say, the vast majority of lesbians I have encountered don't seem to hate gay men or straight men.

I don't know what kind of situations were going on when you had these unpleasant encounters with certain lesbians. If you look back maybe there were other factors in play.

Of course, every group has its angry people. I mean people who are angry about factors in their life that they can't control. The anger you've seen from these certain lesbians you've encountered may have nothing to do with their sex or sexual orientation, but may be a reaction to things going on in their lives that are highly upsetting to them. They take it out on whoever's near. And perhaps they'd rather take it out on a man than on another woman. Many people -- even members of minority groups -- tend to blame the members of other groups for things that have gone wrong in their own lives, rightly or wrongly.

But as I say, gay men and lesbians are all homosexual, so we need to be as supportive and understanding of each other as possible. If you honestly feel these particular women you've encountered have no real grievance, then either you're not looking at it from their point of view, or perhaps -- in this case -- they are just angry people who are Mad at The World for any number of perfectly human reasons.

A Gay Guy and the Gals

Very recently a girl I know told me that she felt something for me. I obviously shot her down since I've got a boyfriend [not all of my friends know about this; most are friends my boyfriend and I have in common]. She was surprised, and we talked it over. At first I thought it was just one of the many one-time things that occur in life until in a period of nine days two other [girl] friends of mine did the same, one of whom cried -- and this just borders on the ridiculous. I never got so much attention in such a short time before! I mean, does this simply confirm the stereotype that all girls like gay men? Or is it that they can somehow sense that I'm no longer available and that therefore makes me more attractive to them?

While it may be unusual that three people -- all women -- should declare their love for -- or at least their attraction to -- you in a two-week period or so, I don't know if it means that all or most women are attracted to gay men. It may just mean that you're an attractive fellow who isn't obviously gay -- you say you haven't told most of your friends that you're gay [maybe you should] -- so the girls don't know that you've got a fella. Since they clearly didn't realize that you were gay, it can't be this "attraction" women supposedly have for gay men that's responsible.

There are women who are drawn to gay men. They used to be called "fag hags," a term that is dated and offensive [to both women and gay men]. Some of these women have low self-esteem and feel gay men won't size them up and judge them the way straight men will. Others are women who haven't come to terms with their lesbianism and hang out with gay guys until they feel comfortable enough to be with gay women.

In any case, this really only means that you're a good-lookin' dude who is appealing to both men and women. Unfortunately for the ladies who like you, you play for the other team. They'll get over it.

Gay Men, Women, and "Sexual Fluidity"

Dr. Bill, I have been reading a lot of stories lately about openly gay men who are having sex with women. Even some of my gay friends have confessed they do this from time to time. What is going on? I thought being gay meant you didn't do that sort of thing. I've been out for quite some time but can't recall this kind of behavior being so prevalent or accepted in the gay community. Am I a prude who doesn't understand the new "sexual fluidity"? Sincerely, A.

First, let's start with the whole concept -- and dangerous notion -- of "sexual fluidity." I think if I hear one more person say "sexuality is fluid" I'll puke. On one hand we have activists and others arguing against these ex-gay nuts who believe you can "pray away the gay" or go straight through conversion therapy. Then we have the "sexual fluidity" trendoids who unwittingly are backing up what these ex-gay idiots are saying. Gay people can't change their orientation -- that is what every responsible psychiatrist, activist, therapist, and sex researcher says. It other words, sexuality is not fluid. Gay people are gay, straights are straights, and -- however many genuine bisexuals there are in the world -- they go from male to female partners but their orientation is always bi. One has to remember that sexual orientation doesn't always match with whichever sex a person is sleeping with, hence these gay guys who sleep with women on occasion. "Sexual fluidity" often just means that someone is going in and out of the closet. Their orientation doesn't really change.

As for these gay guys having sex with women, there are several explanations. First, are these guys really gay? Surely some of them at least identify (whatever the reality) as bisexual. Second, when we talk about "having sex"with women we have to define exactly what "having sex" is.

Picture this scenario. Gay guy and gal pal go out to a gay bar. Gay guy sees guys he likes but he has trouble hooking up with any of them because gal pal is making a loud scene because no one is paying her any attention (the guys are looking for other guys, after all) and the gay guys keep their distance. So it's 4 AM and gay guy and gal pal are both alone and horny. Gal pal gives gay guy a blow job while he fantasizes about one of the hot guys he saw at the bar and would much rather be with. I suppose you could call that having sex with a woman ...

Sometimes the gay guy and gal pal manage to thrash around with each other in bed, if you want to call that having sex. Both are dead drunk, and even if gay guy was attracted to the gal pal he probably wouldn't be able to get it up. In other words, the women in these situations are unlikely to ever get pregnant.

I'd be willing to bet that if you asked your friends for details their sexual episodes with women would be along the lines detailed above. And I'm sure that in almost every case there's heavy drinking and/or drug use involved. If somebody wants to call this "sexual fluidity" they can but I wouldn't. These guys are still gay.

Years ago I had an older friend who was in his fifties. He had had sex with women in the Army thirty years before but not since. One night a "fag hag" -- for lack of a better word --came on to him and he went to bed with her. I was astonished, but he laughed it off and said it was just an act of narcissism. Some men are turned on in a fashion by somebody's lust for them. This guy was middle-aged, not that attractive by objective standards, and while he pursued and caught many, many men, he was rarely pursued himself. Therefore he liked being pursued and decided, in a sense, to give the woman what she wanted. He insisted it was a one-time thing, that he had no desire to repeat it, was not bisexual in any way, shape or form, and that he was a dyed-in-the-wool gay guy (to which I will testify). He was gay before he had sex with the woman, he was gay after he had sex with the woman, and he was gay while he had sex with the woman -- and probably fantasized about men to keep it hard. Again, some would call this sexual fluidity. I wouldn't.

Other essentially homosexual men sleep with women on occasion (generally if no man is around) for some harmless sex-for-sex's-sake, or -- if they are not fully accepting of their homosexuality -- to feel more "butch"and manly. We live in a society where a man is considered a stud only if he sleeps with women, and while a well-adjusted gay man knows this is just hetero bias, a gay man who has "issues" may need to fuck (or at least try to fuck) women to reinforce his very insecure sense of masculinity. Sad, really. Even in this day and age we have homosexual men marrying women so they can come off to the world as straight husbands and daddies (while they hook up with men online). They may even identify as heterosexual. Many gay men are perfectlycapable of having sex with women (although for some only homoerotic fantasizing will sustain them), they're just not interested. They are into men.

Then there are men who know they are gay but are still conflicted. One middle-aged man in a bar a few months ago told me "Sexuality is fluid. [Puke!] Four years from now you could be sleeping with women." I don't think so. Tried it years ago, knew I was into guys, got over the angst very quickly, know who and what I am and wouldn't have it any other way. I could sleep with women but I don't want to, don't need to, and have nothing to prove. If men are middle-aged and they still haven't figured out or accepted who they are, I can only feel sorry for them. Plus the fact that I think it's terrible for these sad fucks to use women the way they do.

And not to be mean, but some of these guys sleeping with women are so effeminate (not that there's anything wrong with that) that when they have sex with a woman it's practically an act of lesbianism. I mean, who are they really kidding?

While I personally have some problems with the 60-year-old Kinsey scale of sexuality (where 0 is totally straight and 6 is totally gay), I suppose proponents of the scale could argue that a man who is a 4 or 5 on the scale -- essentially homosexual but a little bit hetero -- could sleep with women and possibly enjoy it but he'd much, much rather be with a man, if he's honest with himself. Gay guys who are 6 on the scale have zero interest in sleeping with women, of course, and don't understand men who do.

In fact, I dare say that most happily adjusted Out and Proud Gay Men are perfectly happy sleeping with men and just having woman as friends.

So this isn't sexual fluidity and you're not a prude. I honestly don't know how prevalent this business really is. Bisexuality [more on which in a future post] is as trendy as "sexual fluidity" and very political these days, and that may be contributing to what you see -- rightly or wrongly -- as a trend. I have to confess that here in New York I can't say there's an "epidemic" of gay guys sleeping with women that I know of. Most gay guys I know (of all ages) are looking for and sleeping with guys, as they should.

And that, at least, is good news, eh?

Gay Man, Straight Fetish

Is it possible for a gay man to have heterosexual fetishes? I am totally gay but I sometimes get a kick out of fooling around with certain kinds of women -- bosomy, blowzy, over made-up, slightly seedy but fun gals who are a certain age. I'm not bisexual; I have absolutely no interest in having sex with these women, but I don't mind getting hugs and lipsticky kisses from them -- I can find this arousing to a point but all it makes me want to do is ultimately find a guy to have sex with. I have no problem with this, I just wonder what's up? Anon.

I think you've just answered your own question. Something about women of the type you mention arouses some fetishistic interest in you for reasons that may be lost in the long-ago past. It doesn't mean you're straight or bisexual. Besides, being gay doesn't mean we find women repulsive, or can't even on occasion enjoy a kiss from a female. As long as you're not confusing this mild [sex for sex's sake] arousal of a certain kind with full-fledged sexual interest -- and especially if you're not leading these women on with expectations of a relationship -- I don't see any problem with it.

It can create an odd situation if an essentially gay man is turned on by something that is generally associated with women, or with some interaction with the opposite sex. Some men in this situation interact with drag queens [or are drag queens] instead of with women, so that they can do a gay spin on whatever "straight" kink it is that turns them on.

Now if you're spending too much time out on the hunt for women like this instead of interacting with the men you truly desire, it may be a problem. Fetishes and kinks are supposed to add spice to our sex lives (or at least our fantasies) not overtake them to such a point that they dominate our sexuality. If you find this is happening to you, you could always consider speaking to a therapist to find out where this fetish originates and what if anything you can do to suppress it, if such becomes necessary.

But it sounds to me like this is pretty harmless. Some guys conflicted with their sexuality may cling to a fetish like this to supposedly prove that they're straight, but it sounds as if you know better than that.

At least getting a lipstick kiss from a "blowzy" older woman is totally safe sex -- unless you've got a jealous boyfriend!