Who's the Butcher?

Do bisexual men, I mean men who may at one time have been married and had children, tend to be less stereotypical and more masculine than men who are strictly gay and have never been with women?

First, just because a man has been married [to a woman] had sex with women, or fathered children in the biological way doesn't necessarily make him genuinely bisexual -- but that's for another post.

Most, but certainly not all, gay men do a little experimenting in their younger days, some fooling around with the opposite sex, until they get it on with a guy and realize they've found what they're really looking for, and most have little interest in pursuing heterosexual relationships after that or toying with women's affections. Whether a man is stereotypically gay or not has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of experience he's had with women. I've met very masculine guys who've never had sex with a female, and very effeminate men who not only sleep with both men and women [without necessarily being bisexual] but have gotten married and fathered children. I'll never forget a party I went to one summer when there was a guy swishing around the room proudly showing off his wife and their new baby. If there are macho gay guys there are also effeminate straight guys, but somehow I didn't get the impression this fellow was especially straight.

I discovered over many years that the more you try to pigeonhole and stereotype the members of the gay and related communities, the more your expectations -- if your eyes are really open -- will be confounded.

More Weighty Matters

I have really enjoyed your recent blogs on weight issues. [Thank you.] I am a bear chaser, or at least I used to be, now more of a pocket bear. Anyways some chasers do care about their partners health. When I met my boyfriend he was about 230 lbs. Which looks really good on his stocky "bull" build. However after a few years (February of 2012 will be our 10 year anniversary) he gained, going up to about 370 lbs at his biggest.

While I am not a fetish feeder, I am a good cook.  I feel partly responsible because I would bake him cakes, and other treats. It was my not my intention to make him obese, I just wanted to make him happy. Food made him happy. So whenever he was mad or mean or grumpy. I would bake a pie, and it would fix things. I realize that it was a huge mistake.

I never stopped being attracted to him. And sometimes I envy his large size due to the ability to intimidate people with his size.  I have been helping him to loose weight, and he as dropped 50 lbs. I would love for him to get down to 230 and be able to go off of insulin. But I can not force him to exercise. He has a much stronger will than me and he does not take orders from anyone. All I can really do is to try to be supportive. I do not buy a lot of junk food. And deserts are a rare treat now instead of a daily occurrence.  I hope that he does get healthier and starts to enjoy life more. But I can not force him to.  I guess my overly long point is some chasers do care about the health and well being of their bears. [Very glad to hear it! Bill]

Part 2: .My question

As from my first comment. I am in a nearly 10 year relationship. My boy friend is 16 years older than me. When we met I was 22 he was 38.  At that time I had near 0 chest hair, and just ok beard coverage. Now through aging and some minoxidil use, I have a pretty kick ass beard. And even some (though still wish I had more ) chest hair.

Our problem arises in that my boyfriend hates full beards, but I really want one. I have made the concession in the past to have a goatee in the summer(that he likes) and the beard in the winter. We are in Florida so really only 2 seasons.  However he is already starting to complain about the beard.
He thinks I should do what he finds attractive. And while I can see his point, I still have a desire to be fully furried. How much should I give in on this? I mean I like to make him happy but the beard gets me all kinds of positive reaction. Especially from straight men who find it impressive.

My bf is very hairy (Italian) but himself is more in to smooth guys. And never cared for the bear scene. we don't really go out anymore except to local straight bars and restaurants, because he thinks gay bars can cause relationship problems  he prefers strict monogamy). I admit that my smoothness was why I got to have him. I also always wish I were like him and had that beautiful bearness. 

I suppose I should at least give in for his birthday and shave. But the beard will definitely be back before Christmas. How should I deal with the nagging? How can I respect his feelings while still being who I want to be?

Thank you so much for your time, and your blogs. Just writing you makes me feel a lot better.

 Okay, I have to ask, what do you care what straight men think about your beard? Surely your partner of ten years' opinion matters more than some straight guy? I mean, what's up with that, LOL? Gay guys generally want to change their appearance to attract other gay guys!

I have a feeling you like the beard because it makes you feel/look butcher [or what some guys with an old-fashioned sensibility might say "straighter."]? There's nothing wrong with wanting to look more masculine -- and the whole bear/hairy guy thing has a lot of do with masculinity --  but a man can be smooth and clean-shaven and not-so-macho and still be attractive.

On the other hand, you have a right to feel good about yourself and look the way you want to. My advice is to tell your lover that you'll get rid of the beard -- or only wear it in winter -- when he gets down to a healthy recommended size! That may motivate 'im! Just as he wants you to look a certain way, you have the right to prefer him to look a certain way as well.

Your partner is 16 years older than you, getting older, and may be a little insecure, which may be why he's nervous about the bar scene, but if the two of you go to a bar together it shouldn't be a problem. He's undoubtedly afraid that at nearly twenty years his junior you have a wandering eye -- you didn't really have that much time to sow your wild oats, as they say, before getting into a long-time partnership. The answer is compromise. [I always been in favor of modified open relationships -- I frankly think relationships last longer that way -- but a great many gay men disagree with me on this. Different strokes ...]

If the two of you love each other and enjoy each other's company and are there for each other during the rough patches of life, then everything else will work itself out. Good luck! 

Cute and Delicate

hi Bill! Well lets start with this, i love the way women look! smooth skin, slender looks, playful hair, nice hips, beautiful lips... you know, only i don't like it like any boy does, oh no, i like it as in I would like to look like that. Now this is where it gets odd -- I'm not TG [transgender], i don't want to get implants or even less get a sex change operation, no not anything like that. i just want to look and be all cute and delicate.

I know its weird, and ever since i had a boyfriend a couple of months ago i realised that I'm not straight (what a surprise right?). The current conflict to me is that i have this impulse to do what i can to look girly -- i grew out my hair and style it in a very womanly way, i depilated everything from the neck down (you should see how weird i look with a beard). Genetics did me the favor of giving me nice hips and not too broad shoulders (posture fixes this greatly) and must i say that i wear tight jeans and shirts?

But the trouble comes at this point: my boyfriend broke up with me since he insisted that i was "a woman in a man's body." That's not true, for starters as i have told my friends "does this look like a man's body?" i simply love the looks, i still enjoy being a man, just not a manly one, but still a lot of people keep doing their little "interventions." Why is it they question me this much? is it hard to believe what i want? is there a problem with it?

i don't know if you re the one to ask about this last part [probably not! -- Bill] but i hope you can at least point out where i can find about this... Lately I've had this need to further it more, i wanted to do some work to my face, but I'm afraid of surgery! Someone also mentioned hormone therapy, he even said it would remove my Adam's apple, and tone out my hips and legs and even make my skin softer (which i am OBSESSED over) but i also heard that it would make my chest get plumped, which i absolutely would not like! i don't know how that would happen, if its very slight and just some soreness i could stand it, but if its a full blown buy-yourself-a-bra then we've got a problem! i don't want to have breasts! it's one of the womanly things i don't want!! and also i heard that it could cause some manly problems, and i sure as hell like having a functional penis! [Don't we all!]

I'm very scared go into any procedure since all i have done is very superficial and not aggressive (which is only in hair, style, depilation, and moisturising and stuff to make my skin dandy!) but it would make me even happier to look even more like that! Much thanks in advance!!!

Okay. You're right that I'm probably not the one to ask about skin moisturizers, hair care products [I have no hair, baby!], hormone therapy and the like, but I will respond to some of your other comments. Although you may not be transsexual, you could probably get more information about hormone therapy and the like on a site that deals with transgender issues.

First, there's nothing wrong in being a "girly" gay guy, if that's what you're comfortable with. A certain percentage of gay males are stereotypical in that they have some identification with and characteristics of the opposite sex without being transsexuals or wanting to actually be female. In that sense you are "transgender" [or at least androgynous] -- you have female and/or womanly qualities that you cherish. There's no shame in that.

I'm assuming that your boyfriend broke up with you because he's more into the "butch" type of gay man, and if that's the case there isn't much you can do about it. You have to be true to yourself.

I think some of your friends question your "girliness" and what it may mean because guys who think about getting hormone treatments are generally transsexual. [I'm not saying that that's the case with you, but if it is you need to acknowledge it.] However, I do understand that there are men [including some straight guys, believe it or not] who love being and looking feminine and yet still feel they are -- and are -- men. And there are people who feel they are, or at least want to be, "gender-free."

Now about hormone therapy. This is the bit that makes your friends and former boyfriend wonder about you. I understand your desire to be as feminine as possible, but when you're talking about hormone therapy you're taking it a big step further. And any kind of surgery has its risks. I get that you want to be frilly and feminine while still being a man, so getting hormones seems pretty extreme. There may be some gay men out there who appreciate man-boobs, but I imagine they're few in number!

Before you take that big a step, talk to professionals who are very knowledgeable about hormones and their effects, and it wouldn't hurt to get some counseling or therapy [no, I'm not suggesting that you're crazy or anything like that] to determine if hormone therapy would be the right psychological step for you.

But most of all, be comfortable in your own skin, be it soft and feminine like yours, or a bit grizzled and bearded like mine, LOL!

Butch and Femme

Why are some gay men very obvious and effeminate and others you wouldn't ever know are gay, I mean, you can't tell one way or the other. I'm a gay man by the way. Anon.

That's a good question. And not an easy one to answer. There will be some who disagree with this, but I think the vast majority of gay men are not stereotypical, but that the more flamboyant gay men sort of "stick out" a lot more. Some people think that "fabulous" gay men tend to be out of the closet more than those of us who are less fabulous, but it's just as likely that fab guys or "femmes" or "queens" find it much harder, if not impossible, to pass for straight. I know a great many masculine gay men who are completely out of the closet, and I have even met effeminate men who say they are straight but later on admit they are gay. (Not to mention effeminate or "girlish" or "soft" men who may actually be heterosexual!)

Why the difference? Well, here's one theory for what it's worth. For a long time there was a debate as to whether homosexuality was something a person was born with or acquired over time (from the way they were raised, their environment, etc.). Nowadays we -- correctly, I believe - lean toward accepting that we're born gay. But the other traits we have -- those may come about because of the way we're raised or other environmental factors.

For instance, is it possible that feminine gay men are raised primarily by women, or are closer to the female members of their family? Is there an element of unacknowledged transsexuality in the more outrageously flamboyant members of the gay male community? The element of transvestism and female identification is what makes a small percentage of gay men become drag queens (there are also straight men who also like to dress up as women).

But here's the rub. I bet if a study were taken, we'd discover examples of masculine gay men who were raised strictly by women, and effeminate gay men who had a strong masculine father in their life. So it gets confusing.

To further confound the issue, how much effeminate behavior in "queens" is -- for lack of a better word -- "natural" to them, and how much is acquired? I have known gay men who are basically masculine but who are capable of "camping" it up, even becoming a bit swishy, when they feel like it. Most gay men have no desire to do this, of course, but sometimes a gay man will want in no uncertain terms to let everyone in the room know he's gay and that's the way he'll choose to do it, by becoming a recognizable stereotype. (I would prefer they just tell people they're gay but to each his own.) Or maybe the first gay men who befriended him loved to camp and swish and he has consciously or unconsciously mimicked them throughout his life.

To add a note of humor, let me tell you the story of "Bubbalina." This guy was the cousin of my first boyfriend, and both were from Romania. Bubbalina spoke in such a high, squeaky voice that on the phone people would assume he was a woman. I figured that was just the way he talked, he couldn't do anything about it, because after all why would he talk that way if he could help it? One afternoon I came to see my boyfriend, with whom Bubbalina -- as the cousin was called -- was staying. I heard a deep, gruff masculine voice behind the door to the apartment telling my boyfriend's dog to "go away, get out of the way!" as someone opened the door for me and I assumed that one of my boyfriend's friends was visiting.

But when the door was opened there was Bubbalina!

The minute he saw me his eyebrows shot up, his mouth opened wide, and he went -- in that high, screechy, feminine voice -- "Oh, hello, look who's here, so nice to see" ---

To this day I've wondered what the hell was up with that? He had a perfectly nice, positively baritone voice -- why did he speak all the time in that screech? Or did he only do it in gay bars and among gay friends and relatives? And why? Was that simply his way of being gay? Did he enjoy it on some strange, campy, peculiar level?

For all I know Bubbalina could now be a closest case with a wife and six kids and the butchest persona of anyone you've ever met.

If there's a moral to this it's that no one has all the answers just yet. The gay community is entitled to its delightful weirdos just as the straight community is. Let's celebrate our diversity, and -- butch or femme -- be kind to each other and not worry about everything too much.